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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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I think subsequent books, both from WotC and other companies (*cough* Goodman *cough*) will continue to expand your options so that you can make a character that doesn't resemble all others of its type.

Sure, and I have no doubt that other companies will try that. But the thing is that the inherent structure of 4E screams "encounter = combat". All options for all classes focus on or at least amount to *combat*. It is even in the names, like all cleric at-will powers are tagged as "cleric ATTACK", for example. So it will be hard thinking of non-combat powers that don't at the same time weaken a character in terms of being on par with the rest of the party heavily interested in fighting encounters. I hope that I am proven wrong, though.

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The game (and maybe all systems) seems to go from simple --> advanced --> convoluted and broken.

While I agree with you that there is a tendency towards complexity, it does not mean that games invariably reach a condition in which they will be broken! 3.5 and all older editions are still a perfectly playable games. It depends on what additional sources you allow in your game.

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In my mind, the simplicity of 4E gives us that many more years before it breaks. We have some products on the way that deliver some of the things you're asking for, Argamae, but when in doubt, do what we all did as kids and just make it up. Why wait for non-combat rules when you can do your own?

I have to strongly disagree with you here. Firstly, 4E is in no way simple as far as I am concerned. It is simple in that it steers you towards combat heavy characters no matter what class or race you select. And it is simple in that it offers clearly defined and mapped encounters with starting positions for all enemies. Sure, some combat options have been simplified as well. But soon enough - if not already - there will be a flood of new powers and options and builds and paths the likes of which we have never seen before. And that will make things very complicated in very short time. It just has to be from a marketing point of view. How else will you keep players interested if you invest less on *fluff* and background details?
As for the "make up your own rules". Sure, I could do that. But why would I invest in a game where I still have to do additional work to make it work for me? As you said: an older edition already did this for me, so I stick to that. And what is more: after investing hundreds upon hundreds of Euro (or Dollars) in supplements and adventures (most of it from Goodman Games, if I may add gladly) over the years I would be nuts if I now switch to a system where I can use next to none of them (apart from general background books and adventure ideas) and would buy the same stuff all over again.

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...Yeah, I know, usual players don't need this in usual games. But still, I feel like my ambition was... unsupported or dismissed or something...

I know exactly what you mean!

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Done so far:
DCC#1, DCC #11, DCC #28, DCC #17, DCC #17.5 :)


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:10 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA
Hi Argamae,

I think all your points are valid, but I'd like to just pull out one thing you said below:

Argamae wrote:
How else will you keep players interested if you invest less on *fluff* and background details?


We agree with you, and we are investing in fluff. Jeff LaSala and I are currently writing a book that is about 75% background, cultural details, and all sorts of fluffy goodness for both DMs and players. I think we did the same thing with Hero's Handbook: Dragonborn; it is much heavier on fluff than it is on crunch (there's still a lot of crunch in there, too).

We want you to be able to construct interesting 4E characters that are not simply a collection of combat-oriented powers. Remember, we play this game, too, and we like dynamic characters just as much as the next guy. :D

BD

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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
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I'd like to add to my previous thought:
I just got my paws on "GURPS Spaceships" (for 4th edition), which contains rules for constructing ships and basic set of ship parts. Even though I don't play any space games currently, after skipping through it I passionately wanted to construct a spaceship with given parts, to draw how they connect to each other, which power generator sustains what, to equip it with secret sections and other tricky stuff... It's the opposite feeling to disappointment from "ok, rules don't say so, but you can make a pitfall trap, 1/day".
Rules matter...


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:12 pm 
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Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
Thank you all for your convincing words. I have absolutely no doubt that Goodman Games will continue to make great sourcebooks and adventures. And I really mean it - after all, I have bought a lot of 3.5 stuff from you and I was (and still am) very pleased with it! As I might play 4E on and off, I will continue to look for stuff from you. But the majority of my free time willl be invested in my ongoing 3.5 and Pathfinder campaigns.
Quote:
We want you to be able to construct interesting 4E characters that are not simply a collection of combat-oriented powers. Remember, we play this game, too, and we like dynamic characters just as much as the next guy.
Glad to hear that, I really am. And I doubt that you could have written the amazing stuff you did were you not actively and enthusiastically playing the game. :wink:
Quote:
I just got my paws on "GURPS Spaceships" (for 4th edition), which contains rules for constructing ships and basic set of ship parts. Even though I don't play any space games currently, after skipping through it I passionately wanted to construct a spaceship with given parts, to draw how they connect to each other, which power generator sustains what, to equip it with secret sections and other tricky stuff... It's the opposite feeling to disappointment from "ok, rules don't say so, but you can make a pitfall trap, 1/day".
Rules matter...

Again, I second that. I, too, have that kind of enthusiasm which grips me when I read well-done sourcebooks or other game materials. If it makes me want to instantly play it or try it out, then it is most often a great supplement or game. 4E fell short on that during character creation, when I realised that I could not implement my character concept of a subtle, less offensive cleric of the Raven Queen...
And I couldn't agree more: Rules matter... otherwise we would simply be sitting around a table and make up stories as we go. It is a valid pasttime. But it is not roleplaying.

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The lucky guy who gets to translate DCCs into German!
Done so far:
DCC#1, DCC #11, DCC #28, DCC #17, DCC #17.5 :)


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 Post subject: Re: Goodman Games and 4E
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
Argamae wrote:
And I couldn't agree more: Rules matter... otherwise we would simply be sitting around a table and make up stories as we go. It is a valid pasttime. But it is not roleplaying.

Well, there is actually a very interesting game system for that called Universalis. But it brings a ruleset that measures player's power over the story... %)

...Anyway.
I wanted to add that I can doubt WotC's skill, but I have great faith (which is constantly proved by new products) that Goodman Games' 4E will be attractive, natural and flexible. I'm already a Big Bug's fan. Keep up the great work %)


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